If voting actually did anything, they'd make it illegal...
Hey everyone. Looks like things turned out well on the national level with yesterday's elections. Here in backwards Idaho we learned just how ignorant many people are. Oh well, they're entitled to their own stupid opinions...
I wanted to say a couple things about Kyle's post. I haven't said much because I wanted to see what sort of reaction it would get. First off, it was never an argument against Calvinism. It was a serious yet humorous look at encouters with Reformed theology. I'll agree with him, not all Calvinists I have met were jerks and not some either but most were. I too have many friends who are Calvinists. I mean, I went to Boyce College for crying out loud! I have also met many asshole-ish Arminians too. Does this ring a bell? Or how about for you SBTS people, "Baptist Fire." Anyways, we have worthless people on either side of any debate.
There is nothing bad in telling someone you think they are wrong. I think that Calvinism is wrong. Obviously Kyle does too. That's not to say Reformed Calvinists are bad people. And that's also not to say that there's nothing good or helpful in that particular theological view. I'm not Roman Catholic precisely from some lessons I learned from looking at the Protestant Reformation! Blake had some good words when he said this,
Anywho, I just wanted to add my two cents. I'll have a post up soon. I'm thinking about what should masculintiy look like in a postmodern america... I think it is problem but I'm not buying the answers certain conservative groups would like me to. Well, I'm out.
I wanted to say a couple things about Kyle's post. I haven't said much because I wanted to see what sort of reaction it would get. First off, it was never an argument against Calvinism. It was a serious yet humorous look at encouters with Reformed theology. I'll agree with him, not all Calvinists I have met were jerks and not some either but most were. I too have many friends who are Calvinists. I mean, I went to Boyce College for crying out loud! I have also met many asshole-ish Arminians too. Does this ring a bell? Or how about for you SBTS people, "Baptist Fire." Anyways, we have worthless people on either side of any debate.
There is nothing bad in telling someone you think they are wrong. I think that Calvinism is wrong. Obviously Kyle does too. That's not to say Reformed Calvinists are bad people. And that's also not to say that there's nothing good or helpful in that particular theological view. I'm not Roman Catholic precisely from some lessons I learned from looking at the Protestant Reformation! Blake had some good words when he said this,
This leads me to think that the problem is not one of Calvinism, Arminianism, Othodoxy, or what have you. The problem is actually much deeper than that: sinfulness. We all desire to be right over loving one another and the only way we will ever find a way out of this problem is to Abide in Christ and bear the fruits of a Christ-follower.I would agree. See, I think that the point of theology is to remind people that they are to pray. And it is in prayer that we seek to know the will of God and repent of our un-godliness. Sin is the problem. If a theology fosters prayer and repentence, than I'm fine with it. But so many times, with my own personal encounters, Calvinists say that they don't need to worry about it because they are the "elect." If a theology is capable of promoting such arrogance than I can't be a part of it.
Anywho, I just wanted to add my two cents. I'll have a post up soon. I'm thinking about what should masculintiy look like in a postmodern america... I think it is problem but I'm not buying the answers certain conservative groups would like me to. Well, I'm out.
posted by -mike- at 10:26 AM
8 Comments:
Oh no, you didn't pull out the Baptist Fire guns...
You're funny!
Well said, Mike.
And yes, Blake is spot-on.
I'm excited to hear your thoughts on masculinity in post-modern America. It's something that the Church needs to address. What relation does our society's understanding of masculinity have to with the fact that our pews have a higher proportion of women than men?
No matter what you say, without a doubt, you'll piss someone off :)
Mike -
Thanks for commenting on Kyle's post. I thought I could resist commenting again, but apparently, that ol' Calvinist spirit is pulling me in a direction I do not want to go (for those libertarian free will lovers out there :).
You made this comment, "There is nothing bad in telling someone you think they are wrong." I agree, but are you referring to the theology of Calvinism here, or saying that the way Calvinists live is wrong?
You also said, "But so many times, with my own personal encounters, Calvinists say that they don't need to worry about it because they are the "elect." If a theology is capable of promoting such arrogance than I can't be a part of it." Mike, please read Calvin or any of the Puritans or J.I Packer or John Piper or D.A. Carson or any real Calvinist and come back and tell us that Calvinists have an over realized view of assurance. Most Calvinists struggle with the exact opposite problem asking, "Am I one of the elect?" Or "How do I know I am saved or one of the elect?" The Calvinist position is anti-pride de facto because it says, I am saved all of grace. Not even faith originates in me of which to boast.
I am sorry that you have run into poor examples of Calvinism in your Christian journey, but for the sake of some sort of unity, let's remember that not matter what theological persuasion one holds to, he/she is a sinner. Let's keep Christ-likeness as the goal of our perseverence.
-John
I'm not a Calvinist. And I know I am saved completely by grace. I don't get it.
The conversation at hand was a discussion of Calvinism...of Kyle's experiences with some who hold to it. Pulling out the white unity flag defeats the purpose.
Mabley: I did, actually.
Richard: Maybe you can help me with it. Email me (my address is at the bottom of the webpage)
John: We do love our free will! Haha! John, I promise you I have done a selection of reading with most of those you mentioned. I did like a bit of Packer and a bit of the Puritans (mortification of sin) but not much else... But I can also say that I have spent much time in Reformed camps, as a stranger, and many of the *younger* Calvinists are very prideful arrogant people. It was a normal occurance to hear such things as "You're a heretic because you're not reformed" or "You can't even be a christian if you don't admire Calvin!" I know many of the leaders mean well but there is also a lot of crap... I have met humble Calvinists as well and they were a joy. I have many stories with men and women like these who convinced me that it's not an evil theology but I still maintain it's misguided. We are all saved together , mistakes and flaws included.
Mabely: I like the white flag of unity. It's one of my favorites.
(cross-posted)
And this is my final word on it...
Most of the Calvinists I come across want to explain to me how they've got it all figured out, that their system makes the most sense out of the Bible, and apparently feel fully justified in treating other folks poorly just because we're Wrong.
Not all Calvinists are like that. I have a few Calvinist friends who are definitely not like that. I think a suspicious proportion of people I've met like that happen to be Calvinists. It makes me wonder if there's something to this whole Reformed theology thing that might encourage such behavior. I'm half serious, half kidding.
Folks can think that I'm a jerk for saying it (and clearly the Southern Seminary contingent thinks it makes me a big hypocrite) and/or that I'm full of shit or that I was beaten up by a gang of Calvinists at fat camp or that my mother was frightened by a greased-up deaf guy while pregnant or they might even think that I'm on to something.
And no, the post didn't actually deal with any of the content of Reformed theology. I didn't mean to, and nor do I intend to. That wasn't my point at all. But do you know what? Theology is about real people with real lives that need real redemption, so I try to be a little pragmatic: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If Christians are treating each other ugly (to say nothing of the poor pagans!), there is a malfunction in their formation. I don't know where it is over in Reformed land, but that's for the Reformed people to figure out. I'm merely raising the question.
On the last remark made by Kyle...
As a Reformed person I think I know what you've meant by the remark pertianing to Refomed theology "encouraging" such behaviour. I think that the type of person which is attracted to the Reformed faith is often the type of person who's very discontented with the feminization of American Evangelicalism. The Reformed faith provides a robust alternative to that which is being preached in most generic evangelical churches.
Most people who "convert" to Calvinism tend to be people that had no scruples to begin with. After they've been around for a while and had people retreat from them the moment they mention the "Doctrines of Grace" and after a while they calm down.
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